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Morleys Mesut Özil > You and your mum, chief 4,431 pts

What happens if we finish below Leicester & Spurs?

Posted by Morleys about 5 years ago · 83 replies

I posted this on Reddit as a rant after the United match. Don't know how anyone can disagree:

I understood standing behind Wenger in the barren years. I was alongside everyone wondering 'imagine if Arsene had money to spend'. We've bought Alexis & Özil, won 2 FA Cup's yet there's a case to made that there has been 0 progress as we're likely to finish below Spurs & Leicester this season.

I absolutely love Arsene and all he's done for the club, but if that happens he has to leave. Resign, get sacked or whatever; it'd be a new low for our football club. If Leicester win it, it makes our transitional period look absolutely hilarious considering we had more funds then than Leicester do now and still never managed to win a single thing. Spurs winning the title would be the ultimate humiliation for Arsene, our supporters and most importantly the club. That being said, I don't believe our board cares. They'll still charge ridiculous ticket prices and not give a single fuck because they'll be too busy counting the quids and it makes me feel sick.

I honestly think Spurs will do us at WHL and put the final nail in the coffin. Leicester will get unstuck when they go to these clubs who sit back and soak pressure for 90 mins (every team will want to rain on their parade) and Spurs, credit to them being the most consistent, having the best manager & being set up wonderfully, will cruise it. Whether we're 1 point behind or 10 points behind, that would be a catastrophic failure for everyone involved in the club - except for the board of course. Wenger needs to go if that happens. I don't really understand any arguments against it. It's previously been 'who offers better that would be available' to simply 'what does Wenger offer us?'

This job is one of the most lucrative and open roles in World football. Many, many quality managers will be vying for it. We missed the boat massively with Pep, Klopp & Ancelotti. But if we finish as I think we will then we have to gamble on the next best, whether that be Simeone, Tuchel, Unai Emery or Sampaoli. It has to be done, otherwise it will definitely show that Arsene is bigger than the club, which is unacceptable behaviour.

What do you believe should happen? (FWIW, I honestly believe our board is so content with the money the club generates that they'd keep Arsene in charge no matter what. There is no possibility he gets sacked)

83 Comments

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 14,276 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by Ix Techau

How can you justify bigger clubs messing up, with lot more money invest, but you single out Arsenal.

Because as I said, we don't have the problems the other big clubs have. We have a manager of 20 years with 100% control of what philosophy and tactics he wants to use and 100% control of what players he can buy. He has the full backing of the board and is beloved by the supporters. He has spent years building the type of dressing room atmosphere he wants, and yet he STILL can't get his players to click or his tactics to work consistently.

Chelsea and Man Utd are failing because of reasons that don't apply to us.

I don't understand how you can still defend Wenger when he's being outclassed by not just one other mid-table team, but two. That's not a fluke. Ranieri and Pochettino have outclassed Wenger this season, and the former has only been in charge for ten months.

Wenger keeps telling us managerial stability is key: clearly it only takes a few months for Ranieri to build a Premier League-winning team. Chelsea brought in Hiddink and suddenly the team plays well again. So that argument is gone.

Wenger keeps telling us we shouldn't bring in too many players at once: Spurs and Man City are buying players as if footballers will be the only valid currency in an impending zombie apocalypse, and yet they perform fine. So that argument is gone.

Wenger tells us we're playing great football: but we're not. Passing for the sake of it is not beautiful football. Slowly looking for the perfect pass instead of thundercunting the ball into the net is not automatically beautiful football. Wenger has this perverse idea of emulating Barca but he hasn't understood WHY they have so much possession, he just thinks they pass a lot. He has missed the part about efficient high-energy pressing. So that argument is out.

Wenger keeps insisting on the exact same formation every year, regardless of opposition or scenario: this 4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3 we've been playing since 2007-2008-ish is simply not working, as evidenced by our trophy cabinet. But instead of changing it to try something new when we enter the 11th title-less year, he just keeps trying it, like a toddler trying to bang a square peg into a drawing of a round hole. One would think that if it's not working after 500 games, perhaps it's time to try something different?

Wenger keeps telling us it's glorious to be "self-sustainable": so why then does literally no other club care about it? Everyone else are spending, but Wenger keeps riding that imaginary high horse of economic integrity. Why? What does he think would happen if we splashed £150m on a few world class players? He says he wants to compete on the same level as Barca, Real and Bayern...but he's still trying to find unknown gems and gets Elneny as the only signing in a VITAL January this year.

...and so on. Everything Wenger says is either a) designed to excuse a mistake, or b) only valid in 2003 when Wenger's football philosophy was still relevant.

It's time.

poodris 2,818 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by poodris

Motivation is irrelevant without tactics, and tactics are irrelevant without motivation.

The players need a system to buy into that will allow them to fallback onto something certain when faced with unexpected adversity on the pitch.

Arsenal is the most talented team in the prem, but the talent is just sent out onto the pitch without any coherent plan to either score goals or stop the other side from scoring. This is 100% on wenger. He is a dinosaur. They could spend 500 million on players, and they will continue to have the exact same struggles.

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 14,276 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by Ix Techau

I agree, Arsenal's tactical approach and set-up needs a lot of work. Some players need a kick up their ass as well.

I think the point myself and others are trying to make is: should Arsenal's tactical approach and setup really need a lot of work after Wenger has spent 20 years at the club to reach this point in time? Surely he should be 20 years ahead of everyone if the argument is that managerial stability == true.

The problem here isn't that Ranieri is above us in the league...it's that he is above us because he has managed to do in 10 months what Wenger has failed to do in 10 years. He has come up with a simple and elegant gameplan that exploits his players' strengths and weaknesses, and functions nicely in the domestic league.

VA10 Football God 4,805 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by VA10

So you completely neglect the fact that Leicester used only 18 players throughout the season? Is that also down to tactics? And don't give me that "training methods cause injury" crap. That's Stewart Robson shit. Leicester are probably on some blood doping, no other explanation.

VA10 Football God 4,805 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by VA10

I'm saying injuries depend a lot on luck and also on a particular player. If he's injury prone then he's injury prone. But tell me this, how come Leicester's players pull their hammys and come back in 1 week? Didn't Vardy have an operation this season? He came back what 2 weeks after? Does it sound realistic to you?

Come at me bro
Come at me bro
Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 14,276 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by Ix Techau

I'm saying injuries depend a lot on luck and also on a particular player. If he's injury prone then he's injury prone.

There is no evidence supporting the misfortune theory. If luck was such a huge factor, the odds that one club would stay top of the injury tables for 15+ years straight would be a billion to one. Luck is random. There is simply no way luck plays a big part in Arsenal's injury problems. The consistent problems we have is a result of structural issues. Training methods plays a part, so does style of play and squad depth - all of which are controlled by our manager.

But tell me this, how come Leicester's players pull their hammys and come back in 1 week? Didn't Vardy have an operation this season? He came back what 2 weeks after? Does it sound realistic to you?

Because they're obviously better at dealing with, and preventing, injuries. What else would it be? Luck again?

Morleys Mesut Özil > You and your mum, chief 4,431 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by Morleys

I can't believe that if we finish below Leicester & Spurs that people would still want Arsene in charge.

Has he set up a mass indoctrination programme?

JonWill 132 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by JonWill

Motivation is irrelevant without tactics, and tactics are irrelevant without motivation. The players need a system to buy into that will allow them to fallback onto something certain when faced with unexpected adversity on the pitch.Arsenal is the most talented team in the prem, but the talent is just sent out onto the pitch without any coherent plan to either score goals or stop the other side from scoring. This is 100% on wenger. He is a dinosaur. They could spend 500 million on players, and they will continue to have the exact same struggles.

They do have a plan, and we've seen the fallbacks as well; albeit, they haven't been functioning well recently. Recently, the fallback has been "funnel the ball to Alexis, he'll make something happen," but that hasn't worked too well since he's been out of form. With our first XI with the Cazorla-Coquelin axis, our style of play was somewhat different. People place weight on expected goals, and we know that Arsenal are killing the league in that metric. So they're doing something right, even though there are a lot of structural issues on the pitch. What is really hurting Arsenal, apart from their issues, is their ridiculously awful conversion, and we saw that against Swansea and Southampton.

I agree with the notion that Wenger is slow to react. He prefers to give his players a couple of chances to play out of bad form before he drops the axe. I'd say that he is generally a long-term planner, but that argument kind of goes to crap if you look at how he has planned out his squad over the past couple of years.

The major problem with the current system was that Wenger persisted with the Coquelin-Ramsey pivot for far too long, when he should have scrapped it after Leicester at home. Neither of the two are good with regards to build-up and control, and Ramsey was trying to do way too much.

The problem here isn't that Ranieri is above us in the league...it's that he is above us because he has managed to do in 10 months what Wenger has failed to do in 10 years. He has come up with a simple and elegant gameplan that exploits his players' strengths and weaknesses, and functions nicely in the domestic league.

Whilst aided and abetted by a healthy dollop of good fortune and various other factors that have gone their way. They are solid, of that there is no doubt. They're exceptional in their conversion rates, both for and against, and we all know that Kaspar Schmeichel isn't his father. In terms of xG at least, they aren't, whilst Arsenal are. Leicester will not be repeating this feat any time soon in all likelihood. We'd likely have accomplished the feat in 2013-14 during Ramsey's purple patch season if he and many others had managed to stay fit for the entire campaign. The aporphism "football is a game of fine margins" is very much true in my opinion.

Also, 2007-08 Arsenal had a pretty elegant gameplan and functioned nicely in the league.

JonWill 132 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by JonWill

Training methods plays a part, so does style of play and squad depth - all of which are controlled by our manager.Because they're obviously better at dealing with, and preventing, injuries. What else would it be? Luck again?

Their recovery rates do suggest doping. Also, aren't our injury problems getting a little better?

I can't believe that if we finish below Leicester & Spurs that people would still want Arsene in charge.Has he set up a mass indoctrination programme?

Moreso that if he suddenly leaves, Arsenal could find themselves in the cesspit that Manchester United currently are in, unless we manage to land a really exceptional manager, and most exceptional managers are unfortunately already tied up.

poodris 2,818 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by poodris

lol i cant believe people are seriously accusing the competition of cheating. this is the reason arsenal fans are so hated.

JonWill 132 pts
Posted about 5 years ago by JonWill

There is no way a club like Leicester would be able to get away with that unnoticed.

Perhaps. But if they are legit, could use their doctors at Arsenal.

lol i cant believe people are seriously accusing the competition of cheating. this is the reason arsenal fans are so hated.

You obviously have not seen the (hilarious) online petition to get Leicester banned.

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