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Morleys Mesut Özil > You and your mum, chief 4,309 pts

What happens if we finish below Leicester & Spurs?

Posted by Morleys 12 months ago · 83 replies

I posted this on Reddit as a rant after the United match. Don't know how anyone can disagree:

I understood standing behind Wenger in the barren years. I was alongside everyone wondering 'imagine if Arsene had money to spend'. We've bought Alexis & Özil, won 2 FA Cup's yet there's a case to made that there has been 0 progress as we're likely to finish below Spurs & Leicester this season.

I absolutely love Arsene and all he's done for the club, but if that happens he has to leave. Resign, get sacked or whatever; it'd be a new low for our football club. If Leicester win it, it makes our transitional period look absolutely hilarious considering we had more funds then than Leicester do now and still never managed to win a single thing. Spurs winning the title would be the ultimate humiliation for Arsene, our supporters and most importantly the club. That being said, I don't believe our board cares. They'll still charge ridiculous ticket prices and not give a single fuck because they'll be too busy counting the quids and it makes me feel sick.

I honestly think Spurs will do us at WHL and put the final nail in the coffin. Leicester will get unstuck when they go to these clubs who sit back and soak pressure for 90 mins (every team will want to rain on their parade) and Spurs, credit to them being the most consistent, having the best manager & being set up wonderfully, will cruise it. Whether we're 1 point behind or 10 points behind, that would be a catastrophic failure for everyone involved in the club - except for the board of course. Wenger needs to go if that happens. I don't really understand any arguments against it. It's previously been 'who offers better that would be available' to simply 'what does Wenger offer us?'

This job is one of the most lucrative and open roles in World football. Many, many quality managers will be vying for it. We missed the boat massively with Pep, Klopp & Ancelotti. But if we finish as I think we will then we have to gamble on the next best, whether that be Simeone, Tuchel, Unai Emery or Sampaoli. It has to be done, otherwise it will definitely show that Arsene is bigger than the club, which is unacceptable behaviour.

What do you believe should happen? (FWIW, I honestly believe our board is so content with the money the club generates that they'd keep Arsene in charge no matter what. There is no possibility he gets sacked)

83 Comments

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 13,509 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Ix Techau

How can you justify bigger clubs messing up, with lot more money invest, but you single out Arsenal.

Because as I said, we don't have the problems the other big clubs have. We have a manager of 20 years with 100% control of what philosophy and tactics he wants to use and 100% control of what players he can buy. He has the full backing of the board and is beloved by the supporters. He has spent years building the type of dressing room atmosphere he wants, and yet he STILL can't get his players to click or his tactics to work consistently.

Chelsea and Man Utd are failing because of reasons that don't apply to us.

I don't understand how you can still defend Wenger when he's being outclassed by not just one other mid-table team, but two. That's not a fluke. Ranieri and Pochettino have outclassed Wenger this season, and the former has only been in charge for ten months.

Wenger keeps telling us managerial stability is key: clearly it only takes a few months for Ranieri to build a Premier League-winning team. Chelsea brought in Hiddink and suddenly the team plays well again. So that argument is gone.

Wenger keeps telling us we shouldn't bring in too many players at once: Spurs and Man City are buying players as if footballers will be the only valid currency in an impending zombie apocalypse, and yet they perform fine. So that argument is gone.

Wenger tells us we're playing great football: but we're not. Passing for the sake of it is not beautiful football. Slowly looking for the perfect pass instead of thundercunting the ball into the net is not automatically beautiful football. Wenger has this perverse idea of emulating Barca but he hasn't understood WHY they have so much possession, he just thinks they pass a lot. He has missed the part about efficient high-energy pressing. So that argument is out.

Wenger keeps insisting on the exact same formation every year, regardless of opposition or scenario: this 4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3 we've been playing since 2007-2008-ish is simply not working, as evidenced by our trophy cabinet. But instead of changing it to try something new when we enter the 11th title-less year, he just keeps trying it, like a toddler trying to bang a square peg into a drawing of a round hole. One would think that if it's not working after 500 games, perhaps it's time to try something different?

Wenger keeps telling us it's glorious to be "self-sustainable": so why then does literally no other club care about it? Everyone else are spending, but Wenger keeps riding that imaginary high horse of economic integrity. Why? What does he think would happen if we splashed £150m on a few world class players? He says he wants to compete on the same level as Barca, Real and Bayern...but he's still trying to find unknown gems and gets Elneny as the only signing in a VITAL January this year.

...and so on. Everything Wenger says is either a) designed to excuse a mistake, or b) only valid in 2003 when Wenger's football philosophy was still relevant.

It's time.

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 13,509 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Ix Techau

Not only that, but if Spurs win and we are outraged, Wenger will argue that Spurs winning has nothing to do with us. And so the cycle of excuses will continue. I think Wenger is an excellent club ambassador and a fantastic human in general, but he is not the best manager for Arsenal in 2016. If Wenger leaves we will be completely fucked for years until we find our new stability, but it has to be done.

Man Utd stuck with Ferguson because he was winning shit left right and centre regardless of what players he had available to him. He won with fantastic teams and he won with awful teams. He won before oil money corrupted Chelsea and Man City, and he won after. No excuses needed. Wenger does NOT have that legacy. Wenger was great in his first ten years and then stagnated. I simply don't believe the stadium excuse anymore.

It's time.

Morleys Mesut Özil > You and your mum, chief 4,309 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Morleys

Not only that, but if Spurs win and we are outraged, Wenger will argue that Spurs winning has nothing to do with us. And so the cycle of excuses will continue. I think Wenger is an excellent club ambassador and a fantastic human in general, but he is not the best manager for Arsenal in 2016.

Agreed 100%.

If Wenger leaves we will be completely fucked for years until we find our new stability, but it has to be done. Man Utd stuck with Ferguson because he was winning shit left right and centre regardless of what players he had available to him. He won with fantastic teams and he won with awful teams. He won before oil money corrupted Chelsea and Man City, and he won after. No excuses needed. Wenger does NOT have that legacy. Wenger was great in his first ten years and then stagnated. I simply don't believe the stadium excuse anymore. It's time.

I personally feel that we will be fine post-Arsene. As long as a top quality manager or a level below that is appointed all of the ingredients are there for success. It's not like post-Fergie where they had an ageing and retiring/leaving core (Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, van Persie), we have a couple of World Class players in their prime, good young talents and older players like Kos, Nacho & Cech who can remain at a high level for numerous years.

All it takes is a couple of smart investments, great tactical discipline & the instillation of mental strength (Simeone ticks all the boxes) and I have no doubt we will contend once again.

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 13,509 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Ix Techau

I personally feel that we will be fine post-Arsene. As long as a top quality manager or a level below that is appointed all of the ingredients are there for success. It's not like post-Fergie where they had an ageing and retiring/leaving core (Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, van Persie)

I don't buy those arguments. Man Utd have tried both a direct yes-man successor in Moyes, and a high profile buy-ALL-the-players type manager in Van Gaal, and nothing has worked. And I think the reason is that Ferguson instilled a philosophy at Man Utd over the course of 30 years that can't be washed away in three.

We have the same problem at Arsenal. Wenger has instilled a philosophy over 20 years at the club that won't wash away easily. It has nothing to do with player quality. Look what happened at Barca after Pep left, and he had only been there for a few years. They had one of the best squads on the planet when he left and they still struggled afterwards. Philosophy void.

I think we just have to accept that when Wenger leaves there will be a hangover.

We have a couple of World Class players in their prime, good young talents and older players like Kos, Nacho & Cech who can remain at a high level for numerous years. All it takes is a couple of smart investments, great tactical discipline & the instillation of mental strength (Simeone ticks all the boxes) and I have no doubt we will contend once again.

If only it was that easy. Simeone is definitely not the answer in my opinion, but I do like the fact that he seems to prefer a 4-4-2 which is my dream at the moment.

Omglol 2,872 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Omglol

I don't see it same. Each year is different fight, and like it or not the big clubs won the title each year with money power. Its not fer to single out Arsenal this year, when every big club from Chelsea, MC, MU, Liverpool, Arsenal are failing.

What Leicester are doing is dream of every football fan, they havent won it yet, but it even if they dont, its fantastic achievement. Talking about Spurs as if they are team that havent spend crazy money in transfers and dont have good players is bulock. They are team that with years under performing to the money spend and squad strength, it clicked this year, and as much as it will hurt, them winning the title wont be such big wow, in season like this.

Arsene should go, win title or not, not for the reason above, but because his own players arent responding to him anymore. He is too nice, he cant motivate or a lost touch with today football player power. Whatever reason is half of this overpayed **** divas need to go with Arsene. And like Ix said it will be rough time. The void will be to much, if the club dont work with Arsene over time to reduce the impact.

If you ask me for selfish reason i want Arsene to stay, because i love how we play under him(not this last 3 months fak that). Some measure fun/achivment with titles, i would like to see titles too but my priority is Arsenal play style, thats why i support Arsene, and always will.

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 13,509 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Ix Techau

I don't see it same. Each year is different fight, and like it or not the big clubs won the title each year with money power. Its not fer to single out Arsenal this year, when every big club from Chelsea, MC, MU, Liverpool, Arsenal are failing. What Leicester are doing is dream of every football fan, they havent won it yet, but it even if they dont, its fantastic achievement. Talking about Spurs as if they are team that havent spend crazy money in transfers and dont have good players is bulock. They are team that with years under performing to the money spend and squad strength, it clicked this year

My argument there would be: why then haven't we clicked yet? Wenger has had plenty of resources, both in terms of money and personnel. He's had lots of time to build exactly the team he wants. I don't think Leicester is a fluke at all. I think they are a result of a good manager coming in to a team, identifying the key players, adapting his tactics to fit the squad and then approaching the Premier League pragmatically.

Arsenal have better players than Leicester and Spurs in every single position. We have more resources than both, we have a better infrastructure, we have more sensible board members, we are superior in almost every way. So why then is Wenger not able to do what Pochettino or Ranieri does? Why is he not capable of identifying our strengths and weaknesses and build a system around our players instead of the other way around?

When Leicester win the league, and I hope they do, it will expose Wenger to an inconvenient truth: tactically he is a dinosaur. He has stubbornly stuck to an unsuccessful 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 since 2005-2006. It resulted in zero trophies in many years, and only two FA Cup wins in the last two. It is not a successful tactic by any stretch of the imagination. I keep hearing that the extra man in midfield means we're not bullied as easily...but neither Leicester nor Atletico Madrid are bullied in midfield, and they both play a traditional 4-4-2 shape.

Morleys Mesut Özil > You and your mum, chief 4,309 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Morleys

I think a 4231 is still the way forward as it's possibly the most adaptable tactic in the game. That being said Wenger isn't one for changes throughout the game so it's strengths become useless.

A 442 for us would mean Özil would have to play behind the striker, and we'd end up with a 4231 hybrid anyway.

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 13,509 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Ix Techau

I think a 4231 is still the way forward as it's possibly the most adaptable tactic in the game. That being said Wenger isn't one for changes throughout the game so it's strengths become useless.A 442 for us would mean Özil would have to play behind the striker, and we'd end up with a 4231 hybrid anyway.

Well not really. Özil could easily play the Bergkamp role in a 4-4-2, the differences are quite substantial between the two systems even though the shape is similar. The main difference is obviously defending in two banks of four, which, as Leicester has proved, is very efficient in the Premier League. Remember, Wenger stuck with the 4-4-2 in the Premier League whilst testing the 4-5-1 in Europe in that first experimental season.

There are other differences as well, especially when it comes to attitudes and roles on the pitch. The 4-4-2 implies more versatile and/or defensive-minded wingers than our current 4-2-3-1 (that essentially plays three strikers in a 4-2-1-3 to be picky). Alexis and Theo are not actually wingers...they're strikers. That won't fly in a 4-4-2, which needs wide midfielders or actual wingers.

It also slightly changes the central midfield pair to have way more defined roles. With a #10 in front of them they have more creative freedom and therefore less defined roles. It becomes too fluid. False security in numbers. But with only two central midfielders it forces them to play more disciplined and have specific roles.

In my opinion, central midfield duos become stronger as a unit than central midfield trios.

So yeah...there's a huge difference between a 4-4-2 and a 4-2-3-1, even though they could morph into each other in terms of shape.

poodris 2,333 pts
Posted 12 months ago by poodris

how about a 352: Play Alexis as RSS, Giroud can actually be effective a a target man. Nacho and Hector on the wings. Gabriel and koscielney can both cover for that idiot per. Ozil doesn't move. The defensive midfield is still undisciplined and screwing the team over. Perfect.

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 13,509 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Ix Techau

Alexis could probably play LW in a 4-4-2 quite well actually, and Joel on the right. Two players with pretty good work rate. Then Giroud as a classic back-to-the-goal target man and Ozil as the classic #10 secondary forward.

Coquelin is one part of the midfield duo, but not convinced we have a suitable partner in our squad currently. Ramsey is too full-on, Cazorla isn't physically built for a CM duo. Ideally we'd get someone like Pogba or Di Maria to partner Coquelin in central midfield.

GK and backline is fine, but ideally need a world-class CB to partner Kos, with Gabriel as the backup.

Done.

Omglol 2,872 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Omglol

My argument there would be: why then haven't we clicked yet?

Because in ANY other season what Leicester and spurs do would have take them to top 4 max or top 6 and the big clubs would fly high with 10 points difference.

Morleys Mesut Özil > You and your mum, chief 4,309 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Morleys

Too right Mantra. Just because every other top team has been shit it doesn't mean we should be.

Every other top team is also getting a new manager at the end of the season.

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 13,509 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Ix Techau

Just because every other top team has been shit it doesn't mean we should be.

Besides, they have been shit because of problems we don't have. Man Utd have been shit because they've been trying to find their identity for three years. We don't have that problem. Chelsea have been shit because Mourinho insisted on ruining dressing room atmosphere and creating chaos. We don't have that problem. Man City haven't been shit, but they are becoming predictable because of too many similar player types. We don't have that problem (with similar player types...we are predictable though).

Every other top team is also getting a new manager at the end of the season.

Guardiola will boost Man City, Mourinho will boost Man Utd. Ranieri will continue playing top football, it's Klopp's second year, and Chelsea will probably get Conte. This season was by far our best chance at upsetting the balance in the Premier League. But since we weren't capable of doing that, Leicester and Spurs took their chance.

Omglol 2,872 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Omglol

How can you justify bigger clubs messing up, with lot more money invest, but you single out Arsenal.

And every fan of other clubs will say same. "Just because Arsenal is been shit that dont mean we should".

Ix Techau Evil Mastermind 13,509 pts
Posted 12 months ago by Ix Techau

How can you justify bigger clubs messing up, with lot more money invest, but you single out Arsenal.

Because as I said, we don't have the problems the other big clubs have. We have a manager of 20 years with 100% control of what philosophy and tactics he wants to use and 100% control of what players he can buy. He has the full backing of the board and is beloved by the supporters. He has spent years building the type of dressing room atmosphere he wants, and yet he STILL can't get his players to click or his tactics to work consistently.

Chelsea and Man Utd are failing because of reasons that don't apply to us.

I don't understand how you can still defend Wenger when he's being outclassed by not just one other mid-table team, but two. That's not a fluke. Ranieri and Pochettino have outclassed Wenger this season, and the former has only been in charge for ten months.

Wenger keeps telling us managerial stability is key: clearly it only takes a few months for Ranieri to build a Premier League-winning team. Chelsea brought in Hiddink and suddenly the team plays well again. So that argument is gone.

Wenger keeps telling us we shouldn't bring in too many players at once: Spurs and Man City are buying players as if footballers will be the only valid currency in an impending zombie apocalypse, and yet they perform fine. So that argument is gone.

Wenger tells us we're playing great football: but we're not. Passing for the sake of it is not beautiful football. Slowly looking for the perfect pass instead of thundercunting the ball into the net is not automatically beautiful football. Wenger has this perverse idea of emulating Barca but he hasn't understood WHY they have so much possession, he just thinks they pass a lot. He has missed the part about efficient high-energy pressing. So that argument is out.

Wenger keeps insisting on the exact same formation every year, regardless of opposition or scenario: this 4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3 we've been playing since 2007-2008-ish is simply not working, as evidenced by our trophy cabinet. But instead of changing it to try something new when we enter the 11th title-less year, he just keeps trying it, like a toddler trying to bang a square peg into a drawing of a round hole. One would think that if it's not working after 500 games, perhaps it's time to try something different?

Wenger keeps telling us it's glorious to be "self-sustainable": so why then does literally no other club care about it? Everyone else are spending, but Wenger keeps riding that imaginary high horse of economic integrity. Why? What does he think would happen if we splashed £150m on a few world class players? He says he wants to compete on the same level as Barca, Real and Bayern...but he's still trying to find unknown gems and gets Elneny as the only signing in a VITAL January this year.

...and so on. Everything Wenger says is either a) designed to excuse a mistake, or b) only valid in 2003 when Wenger's football philosophy was still relevant.

It's time.

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